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Water
Cooling - Page 3 - Reader's Comments
By James 'Agg' Rolfe
Ok, firstly let me say WOW! I
never anticipated such a huge response to this
article. I've had over 160 emails and over 6400 visitors in
the first 24 hours, I'm stunned. :) Sorry I can't reply to everyone
individually - THANKS to everyone who sent info and suggestions,
support and expressions of amazement. :) A lot of the responses
were similar so I will address the major points raised:
- Use a fridge, with the reservoir
inside, and run tubing from that to the PC
Hmm, good idea, but a
little expensive to leave a fridge running just for the PC. Also,
not very portable.
- the clips for mounting the
unit seem to be the arms from bulldog clips, used for holding
lots of sheets of paper together
Ahh! So they are. It's
obvious when 35 people point it out to you. :)
- you can get those clips from
newsagents, stationery suppliers etc
Yeah ok - that wasn't
what I meant.. I meant, does anyone know where to get the water-cooling
blocks, not the clips. :)
- add antifreeze to the fluid
- add alcohol to the fluid
to stop bacterial growth
- use "Redline Water Wetter"
to make the water mix more thermally efficient
Definitely considering
an antifreeze mixture for the closed system. I have other plans
for my alcohol. :) I think the antifreeze will have the same
effects.. that Water Wetter stuff sounds good, too, anyone got
any idea where to get it in Australia? (what kind of stores sell
it in the US?)
- Use pure ethyl alcohol, it
won't freeze even if you get it REALLY cold, it's non-conductive
and very thin so good flow rates
..it's also highly flammable,
produces explosive vapours and is extremely poisonous..
- Use liquid nitrogen
I don't want to look
like I'm saying "NO!" to all of these ideas, but..
the thermal stress would probably crack the ceramic casing of
the processor. :) There's "extreme", and then theres
"extreme", if you know what I mean. I'll stick with
a water-based solution for now.
- Use an automobile transmission
fluid radiator - small and efficient
- Use a motorcycle radiator
Yep, from various people's
descriptions a small oil radiator sounds like exactly what I'm
looking for. I could mount it, the pump and the reservoir in
a box and have fans venting through the radiator and out the
top of the box. Then I could have water pipes and power for the
peltier going from that box to the main machine. A definite plan
is forming!
- Use an automobile fuel pump,
small, in-line and very quiet
- The fishtank pump is a bad
idea - it will heat the water
Hmm. I agree that an
inline pump may be better.. I will work around this fishtank
pump for now, until I determine it to be the limiting factor.
For the next big project I will definitely consider a fuel pump.
If this fishtank pump is too loud I will look into one as well.
:)
- Just leave the tap running
into the bucket, that way it will always be cold
- Plug one end into the tap,
through the heatsink and back out to the sink, turn the tap on
and have cold water indefinitely
Guys!!! A few people
suggested this, jeez, don't you have water wastage laws where
you live? :) This is Australia, we run out of water during summer
- if I got in the habit of leaving a tap running all day the
EPA (environmental protection authority) would come kicking in
my door in no time. Plus it's expensive (ok, not _that_ expensive)..
plus it's not very portable (Go to a LAN party, plug into the
power, the LAN, the nearest tap..) .. :)
- Use a larger, flatter reservoir
like a baking dish, you will lose heat due to evaporation
Hmm, not portable, not
easily built into a self-contained unit, probably wouldn't lose
heat quick enough, my girlfriend's dog would drink the antifreeze
and I'd get in trouble. :)
- The larger the reservoir
the longer it will take to heat up
- Use a 10-gallon fishtank
as the reservoir
Yeah, but this is a workaround,
not really a solution. I guess at some point, the reservoir would
be large enough that the amount of heat it lost due to evaporation
and radiation would mean it would take forever to heat up all
the water.. but we run into the portability issue again, and
it's impossible to build into a self-contained unit.
- it is the effective exposed
surface area that is important in long term heat dissipation,
not the volume of water.
Yep. I will use much
less fluid in the closed system. I just wanted to have a large
enough reservoir to last a little while - just to prove the chip
can cope.
- Use tupperware box for the
reservoir inside case
- Use a little plastic project
box from electronics store
- Use a cd-rom tower case,
not a minitower case, they look nicer
- Drill 2 holes in a case-front
faceplate (5.25" device slot), route the tubing through
there, so you can put the cover back on your case. Use rubber
grommets in the holes to stop the plastic cutting the tubing
All good ideas. :)
- Use a peltier sandwich of
2 heatsinks, one in the water (cold), one in the air (hot) with
a peltier between them.
Hmm, interesting idea..
I think the radiator will be simpler, but this is a good alternative.
- Why don't you do a fully
immersed system like Dr Ffreeze?
Because I'm not completely
barking mad. Too messy! And frankly, Dr
Ffreeze's results weren't that impressive last time I checked.
- Why don't you use mineral
oil?
Because I don't have
any. :) Actually, I think the thermal conductivity of mineral
oil is not all that good (hence Dr Ffreeze's lack of outstanding
results) .. the advantage is that it's not conductive and not
corrosive, so if it spills inside your computer you don't care
(apart from the mess). Hmm, something to consider. I think water
and antifreeze or that Water Wetter stuff is the way to go. (Agg
anticipates 100 emails telling him he's wrong again)
- I can't wait to see what
you do with a .18 micron processor / athlon / p3
- Have you tried DEC alphas
/ p3 / other celerons / athlon
I've only been overclocking
Celerons.. because they overclock well, and they're cheap to
replace if they go bang. I am always open to donations, though..
:) [especially athlons!]
- we extensively use the type
of RTV you utilized at work... heres a little trick to get the
RTV looking like a factory installed bead.... spit on your finger
tip and smooth out the RTV... the silicone won't stick and it
will look like it was meant to be there.
Had to go read my article
again to see what you were talking about. Oh, the sealant stuff!
:) Ok, cool. Thanks for the tip!
- Check under the processor
- you are probably still getting condensation underneath it,
inside the socket. Remember those pins are the ones that carry
the core voltage, so you really don't want to get them shorting
each other!
Aaarg! Ok. I'll pull
the assembly apart (hopefully I can just cut that sealant stuff
off) and fill the hole with more sealant. Also, I think I'll
coat the back of the slocket (where the pins from the socket370
are) with sealant so they can't short either.
- Got to www.meci.com and go
to the section on "coils". They have some AWESOME radiators
for liquid cooling for $15-20. The inventory changes a lot, so
just see what is there. I took mine and zip-tied it to a 19""
floor fan and it keeps things pretty cool. Make sure that the
radiator is BEFORE the ice, or you will just warm your cold water
with it. Good luck.
They look great. The
little one is exactly what I'm after.. shame they're in the US.
Should be able to find something here, though.
Some specifics:
Your setup is pretty cool for
a 370, I have a slot 1 so the there's a little bit more water
block to work with. This is about the condensation. There are
two things you can do to stop it, completely. I would not use
that silicone, it's messy, and your water block will still sweat
when you have real cold water going through it, including your
1/4 water hoses, trust me, I'm sitting here looking at some damaged
goods because of it. My father is a heating/cooling engineer and
he gave me two great products that he uses. I think you have to
have a license to get the stuff, but I'm not for sure. The first
is a spray called "No Sweat". This shit is awesome.
It sprays a fine, textured mist over all of your parts and somehow
it stops condensation completely. The second is the stuff I use
here. It's a black foam (very thin), and it has a sticky side
that will let you apply it to any surface, copper, aluminum, you
name it. What I did was totally encased my water block in this
stuff and made cutouts on it for the brass hose connectors and
the slug. When this stuff is "pressed" together with
the chip, it provides great insulation, and it's kind of rubbery
to keep anything from shorting out. I filled a whole cooler full
of ice and ran it through my water block and the foam wasn't even
moist.
Sean Lair
Actually, I _have_ experienced
that - I put 4 trays of icecubes into the bucket while trying
to hit 670, and I got condensation all along the tubing and on
the copper block - even the back of the slocket was wet! Not good.
That is the main reason why my current goal is to get the water
constantly at room temperature, not "as cold as I can get
it" .. I will definitely keep an eye out for that kind of
stuff - thanks again! I saw your article. Good
work. I have built a lot of these type systems for
car audio amplifiers. I didn't see a fan, but you still want in
near the
cooler to help pull off the heat. You DEFINETLY want to use a
some type of
watter cooling device. I would recommend a transmission cooler
though, as they
are very small, cheap, and work JUST as well. You should defintely
use a
automotive fuel pump. They are extremly efficient, quite(try a
few), and they
don't draw a lot of amps(I would just use another power supply
from an old
computer case). This is the same setup we used in a ton of car
audio systems
we made. The fuel pumps were usually quite enough, because nobdy
would have
used them if they were noisy. Let me know how they work out. You
could also
use metal or braided tubing to help dissapate heat(anotehr trick
we learned
after a few systems with rubber) because the rubber just HOLDS
the heat in.
You will also be able to get a sealed water container by using
this system.
Ahh.. more useful info. Thanks,
looks like I will be hunting for a fuel pump and transmission
fluid radiator next. I am an engineer specialized
in thermodynamics. I have a few sugestions as
to how you can cool your water tank. There are 4 ways that heat
can leave a
container:
1. Radiation
2. Convection
3. Conduction
4. Evaporation
Heat will only leave the container
by radiation, convection and conduction
if the temperature of the container is higher than the surroundings.
This
will ofcause happen eventualy.
The only way that heat can
leave a container if the temperature of the
container is lower than the surroundings is by evaporation.
I will now go through the different
means of getting rid of the heat:
Radiation:
Radiation is best accomplished
from black surfaces. Blank surfaces will
reflect heat. Make sure that your container is black. However
paint
insulates the container so the paint layer should be very thin
and it would
be best if the material itself is black. Radiation will not take
place
inside the container only on the outside. The amount of heat lost
depends
on the area of the surface.
Convection:
When air or water becomes hot
it will start to rise and thus create
movement at the surface of the container. This movement causes
heat to be
removed. from the surface of the container. You can force the
air to move
with fans. Faster air or water movement equals higher removal
of heat.
Conduction:
Conduction happen in solid
materials if there is a temperature difference.
Counduction takes place in the CPU, heatsink and walls of the
container.
The best conductoer is Copper. Another good one is Aluminum. All
metals are
good conductors. Plastic, Paint, Wood, Rubber and the like are
bad
conductors. Use a copper container and use copper for heatsinks.
Evaporation:
Evaporation cools the surface
if the humidity is below 100 % Evaporation
can not take place at 100 % humidity. If you use an open container
you will
loose heat by evaporation.
The think to remember is that
if you double the surfacearea you double the
heat lost. This is why heatsinks have ribs.
Another way to cool the container
is to put it inside a freezer or fridge.
Peter Sorensen
Thanks for the info Peter! I've
a suggestion for ya to keep the water cooler. You could go pick
up
some 1/4 inch (approx .64 cm) copper/vinyl tubing, a 1/4 inch
saddle
valve, a swamp cooler float valve, some 1/2 inch (approx 1.27
cm) inside
diameter tubing, a 1/2 inch stop cock (valve), and a 1/2 inch
connector. Hook the 1/4 inch saddle valve to a cold copper water
line
in your house, then run the 1/4 inch tubing to your computer area.
Mount the float valve in your reservoir of water at about the
level you
want the water(the float is adjustable so placement doesn't have
to be
perfect). then place the 1/2 inch drain connector at the bottom
of the
reservoir, run the 1/2 inch tubing out a window, to a sink, or
even a
floor drain in the house, with the stop cock located near the
reservoir
for convenience. When it is all hooked up, screw in the saddle
valve
(self peircing type) to open up the water line, open your stop
cock to
let a little water out, adjust the float to let a little water
in and
whammo, you're off to the races. The water will only run when
you open
the stop cock! Not sure if you use swamp coolers down under, but
the
float valve is similar to what is in the tank of your toilet(except
much
smaller) to regulate water flow. Hope this helps.
Brandon Park
Now that is a genuinely useful,
original idea! Thanks Brandon!
Finally, here are a bunch of other water-cooling freaks out there.
This first one is so like my own, and was posted to the web a
day or so before mine, that the guy jokingly accused me of stealing
his idea. :)
http://hardware.externet.hu/cooling/HM1/index.htm (in hungarian, but good pics)
http://freddy-intertaiment.webjump.com/water.html
- water-cooling a video card.
http://www.frostyfox.com
- the master. we're not worthy.
http://www.accsdata.com/drffreeze/
- the original and best (and looniest)
Dugedug's
rig - beer can for a reservoir, very cool.. but where does
the heat go?!
www.benchtest.com's
rig - homemade copper block!
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